Christianity, Cults and Culture

COGR – Apologetic Thunder: Responding to Scriptural Misinterpretations

February 9, 2024

Good day! I am writing a series of short reviews of abbreviated COGR video clips. I am looking for input and comments. If it makes it easier, I will gladly supply a Word document so comments can be put in the document, and we can communicate directly. My email address is lattema@icloud.com. I hope you find these reviews helpful.

Transcript:

“And he said, And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it was the noise of thunder.

Now, if I could also get some help to read.

Somebody turned to Psalm 18, verse 13, and let’s read that. So who has that? Psalm 18, verse 13? Someone quick, stand and read it. Thank you, Brother Yancy.

The Lord also thundered in the heavens, and the Highest gave His voice—hailstones and coals of fire. You often see thunder mixed together with hailstones and coals of fire; it is a loud noise. Thunder is a result in the natural world. Thunder is a result of a lightning strike. When lightning strikes, there is so much heat that it enlarges or expands the molecules of the air, and then it instantly goes back, causing a clap of thunder.

Well, here the Scripture helps us to see that God sends forth His message as thunder or—His message also brings enlightenment. So when He’s speaking, there is thunder. He speaks and says, in this description, ‘Here we have a sword coming out of His mouth,’ saying that the Word of God, as we know in Hebrews, chapter 12, verse 5, may be verse 12. That said, His word is like a sharp, two-edged sword, and it comes out of His mouth.

Well, do we learn about—is it Christ, the second person of the Trinity, or Christ in the flesh? It’s Christ in the flesh. So He’s thundering—His thunderings come through the voice of His ministry.

That’s how God talks to you? Say, no, He talks to me in my prayer closet. Well, He might do that, but He gets you just enough place to get you to somebody who can thunder at you.

Do you know, you need somebody thundering at you if you’re good and you want to get better—better, you need somebody to thunder at you.

So we have thunder in Psalm 104, verse 7. And there’s more text that we could give, but for the sake of time, we have so much to cover, we’re not going to give them. You can also get the Revelation Symbols book. It also gives you additional text, and you can do some of that on your own.” (Ray Tinsman)

Commentary:

Ray Tinsman demonstrates the wrong understanding of thunder, the wrong understanding of Christ, and the wrong understanding of ministry. These red flags should warn anyone looking for a church home to look elsewhere.

Let’s look at what the COGR is teaching here.

1. Thunder is God’s revelation, his voice.
2. God does not want us to pray to him directly as we have the ministry to tell us what we should know.
3. Don’t think about Jesus of the Trinity but Jesus in the Flesh.  
4. Jesus in the Flesh speaks through his ministry (7^th Trumpet Ministry)

To support these claims, Ray presents a mix of unrelated Bible verses. However, the verses utilized are not well-linked and do not support his argument. Psalm 18 discusses God’s deliverance, Hebrews isn’t linked to thundering, and Revelation focuses on God’s judgment. None of the verses imply that God doesn’t speak to us in prayer or that we need our leaders to thunder at us. Nor do they support a non-Trinitarian view of Jesus. None of that is true.

THUNDER

Concerning thunder:

Thunder

Thunder is a vivid biblical image, appearing two dozen times. The image’s meaning is linked to thunder’s physical properties as a force of terrifying power beyond the human, accompanied by lightning and other aspects of rainstorms.

Primal imagination links thunder with the presence, power and wrath of deity. In the Bible, most references make thunder a manifestation of God. Within this, four motifs appear.

1. Sometimes thunder is simply one of the forces of nature controlled by God. …
2. A second cluster of images makes thunder a symbol of the transcendent power of God. …
3. As an extension of the power of God, thunder is one of God’s weapons against his enemies.
4. Yet another category of references extends the power of God in the specific direction of divine wrath and judgment against evildoers. …

The image of thunder in the Bible is based on a paradox: it is a force of nature that consistently images forth something beyond nature, namely, the presence, power and judgment of deity, evoking primarily awe and dread. (Leland Ryken et al., Dictionary of Biblical Imagery (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 2000), 869.)

If we look at the verse in context, thunder is used as a simile. It is an adjective describing the voice of one of the living beasts (who, despite the COGR mythology, are most assuredly not “the saints”). We are not looking at literal thunder here, which is implied in Ray’s response. John could have accurately said, “I heard the very loud voice of the living beast.”

Καὶ εἶδον ὅτε ἤνοιξεν τὸ ἀρνίον μίαν ἐκ τῶν ἑπτὰ σφραγίδων, καὶ ἤκουσα ἑνὸς ἐκ τῶν τεσσάρων ζῴων λέγοντος ὡς φωνὴ βροντῆς· (ὡς is translated in this context as “like” or “as”. )

Nor does thunder carry a message or enlighten. Thunder conveys the awesomeness and power of God. So when Ray claims Jesus and his ministry are thundering it is an error based on a misunderstanding of what thunder is symbolic of.

The Scripture shows thunder demonstrating power and instilling fear, awe, and dread. Based on many anecdotal reports, it seems fairly accurate that the message is that this ministry will thunder until individuals finally cower and submit. Though it may sound crude, this interpretation aligns with experiences recounted by many.

PRAYER

After seeing that thunder does not carry a message in and of itself, it is a good time to ask if speaking to God in prayer is as fruitless an activity as Ray suggests. This is a huge claim on Ray’s part. Ray believes that personal prayer does not help unless it might get us to someone else who could thunder at us. This fits well with the COGR’s disdain for those who claim there is a need for a personal relationship with Jesus. We shouldn’t be praying to a nebulous and distant Jesus. Instead, what is needed is to hear from the ministry as it thunders. This stems from the group’s failure to understand how God relates to us. The COGR is a high control group. They do not want members praying privately as that cannot be controlled. The message is that the leadership needs to thunder at you so you can hear God. They feel compelled to control and intimidate members. They do not mentor or guide; they thunder. This is not a Biblical approach. The Bible nowhere condones spiritual abuse. The Bible instead encourages prayer as essential. If correct, there should be Scriptural support for praying directly to God. What do we find?  There are hundreds of verses encouraging us to pray. No verses discourage private prayer.

In Christianity, the emphasis is typically on seeking direct guidance from God through prayer and studying Scripture. While there are verses encouraging believers to seek counsel from spiritual leaders or mentors, it’s important to note that believers are encouraged to seek God directly and test all teachings against the Word of God.

JESUS

Ray Tinsman suffers serious confusion about the nature of Christ. He asks his hearers to choose between the Jesus of the Trinity and Jesus in the flesh.  He asserts that Christ, in His flesh, thunders through His ministry. This basic error regarding the person of Christ is worrisome. Though Ray claims to be Trinitarian, he seems unaware of how his “Jesus” differs from the Jesus of Scripture.  Jesus is eternally the second person of the Trinity. To believe that Jesus’ nature has changed or that he presents in two different modes is an error and ignores Scripture which asserts Jesus is unchanging. (Hebrews 13:8, James 1:17) Additionally, Jesus was never said to thunder at anyone, nor did his “ministry”. 

Recommended Reading

Ray refers his hearers to their “Symbols Guide”. It is rife with error. Any other source would be a better choice. For a serious student, perhaps Dictionary of Biblical Imagery (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 2000) would be a good choice.

Conclusion

Just as folks say that the eyes are the window to the soul, we can think of the writings of cult leaders as a direct insight into their intentions. This short transcript shows troubling signs that warn us of the dangers of becoming ensnared by the COGR. Scripture is twisted, Jesus is misrepresented, folks are separated from their means of access to God, and an abusive leadership style is encouraged. Those looking into this group should walk away. Anyone involved should run to the quickest exit. This is not a safe place to be.