COGR – Democracy destroys the church!
February 3, 2024
Good day! I am writing a series of short reviews of abbreviated COGR video clips. I am looking for input and comments. If it makes it easier, I will gladly supply a Word document so comments can be put in the document, and we can communicate directly. My email address is lattema@icloud.com. I hope you find these reviews helpful.
Transcript:
I just want to show you on the chart. And then we’re going to bring over the whiteboard. So you see this mountain of fire, which was a representation of the morning-time church. And then we see that in this second trumpet, time it’s down here in the water. And fire don’t do well together. So it was cast down into the sea.
It says, now, brother, if you would bring your board over, let’s look at this just a little bit.
What is sea? We want to know, what is the sea? Let’s look at Revelation Chapter seventeen, verse number fifteen. Somebody read that for me? Brother, Yancy, please.
“And he saith unto me, one of the Waters which thou sawest where the whore sitteth are people and multitude and nations and tongues.”
So what we see here is that the mountain burning with fire was cast into the multitude. Now, once you know that the church has never been a democracy, that mountain of fire that got cast into the sea is what happens when we take and try to make a democracy out of the church. It fell into the hands of people. And the people, unregenerated people I might add, people who were carnal, people who were fleshly, and it calls the fire of the mountain to vanish, or at least to not be in a visible situation.
All right, let’s just do a little work here. Now, verse number eight, or let’s see.
So we’ve got blood. I’d like to advance to you that blood is in this incidence. Blood is a sign of guilt, is guilt.
Let’s look here, and I might need a little help. Matthew, I mean, I’ve got to read this. What happens is, I make notes in my Bible and then, I can’t remember which symbol they go to. Matthew twenty-seven verse twenty-five, let’s see what that says. Matthew twenty-seven verse twenty-five, oh yes, this is going to be right, talking about the guilt of blood, and then we’ll just deal with this briefly.
“And then answered all the people and said, his blood be on us and on our children also.” Matthew twenty-three verses thirty-four through thirty-nine, the Scripture talks about judgment coming on the people, and all from the righteous blood of Abel to how does I say that? You just write that reference down, and you read that concerning blood being guilt.
What happened is that people became guilty for what happened to the burning mountain of fire. And then because of that, because the church is the lifeline, because the burning mountain of fire is spiritual life to the soul. Then it said, the third part, or a portion, of those things that was alive inside of that sea died from the judgments of the falling of the mountain of fire. (Ray Tinsman)
Commentary:
Text:
8 The second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned into blood, 9 a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.
Let’s look at what Ray has said,
- The mountain is the church.
- The burning fire was spiritual life to the soul.
- The sea was the hands of the unregenerate people who caused the fire to vanish.
- The blood is the guilt of the people.
Ray, having defined the objects, interprets the meaning of the passage. He suggests that the church was meant to be ruled by a pope-like figure with absolute control. The church failed to maintain that standard and as a result the fire was put out and the church was cast into the multitudes. The guilt of those people was mingled throughout.
Looking at the text there is nothing within the book of Revelation that demonstrates that the burning mountain is the “morning–time” church. No one believes that the idea of a Congregational or Presbyterian model of government was in John’s mind as he wrote about the mountain being hurled into the sea. This connection of the “great mountain burning with fire” with the morning-time church is subjective and lacks biblical support. The symbolism of the “mountain of fire” in Revelation 8 is not explicitly defined in the text itself. It could represent various entities or concepts and linking it directly to what Ray Tinsman calls the morning-time church without substantial scriptural evidence is an interpretative stretch. Some interpretations offered by scholars regarding the mountain and the sea in Revelation 8 include literal or historical interpretations, such as volcanic eruptions or the fall of powerful empires, seen through the lens of apocalyptic language and symbolism. Or they could represent spiritual events where the mountain is a symbol of a divine revelation, spiritual foundation, or a significant religious institution.
The sea might symbolize humanity, the world, or a particular aspect of human society, possibly referring to the impact of this revelation or institution on the world. Seen apocalyptically some scholars interpret the imagery of the mountain and the sea as part of a larger eschatological narrative, signifying cosmic upheaval, divine judgment, or the transformation of worldly powers. While a verse from Revelation 17:15 refers to waters representing people, nations, and tongues, there isn’t necessarily a direct correlation between this verse and the interpretation of the mountain casting into the sea. Such an interpretation appears to be based on subjective reasoning rather than explicit biblical connections. The “sea” in apocalyptic literature, including Revelation, often symbolizes chaos, nations, or the masses of humanity. The sea in Revelation 8 could represent tumult, unrest, or a significant population affected by the event described in the passage or it could represent the literal sea.
When we look at blood as used in the text Ray’s understanding is unlikely. The connection made between blood and guilt, using verses from Matthew 27:25 and Matthew 23:34-39, seems forced and lacks contextual support within the passage of Revelation 8. It’s important to be cautious when making assumptions about symbolic meanings without strong scriptural support. Blood in biblical symbolism carries multifaceted meanings. It can signify life, sacrifice, atonement, or judgment, among other things. While it might be connected to guilt in certain contexts, it doesn’t exclusively represent guilt throughout the Bible.
When Ray says, “the church has never been a democracy, that mountain of fire that got cast into the sea is what happens when we take and try to make a democracy out of the church.” He is making a subjective statement regarding church government. The New Testament doesn’t directly prescribe a specific form of governance for the church. The term “democracy,” as we understand it today, didn’t exist in the same way during biblical times. The governance and structure of early Christian communities were more likely shaped by apostolic guidance, local leadership, and the guidance of the Holy Spirit rather than a particular political system. Interpreting the mountain cast into the sea as a representation of the church becoming more democratic is highly speculative. Revelation is a book filled with complex symbolism, and while it conveys powerful messages, linking specific symbols to modern-day concepts, especially political or organizational structures, requires caution.
I think it is unfortunate that Ray, as a church leader, has done so little justice to the text. It should make any reasonable person wary when they listen to his teaching and preaching.
Addendum: For those who wish to dive a bit deeper into the topic, here are some of the views held by individuals in the main four interpretive camps.
Preterist
From a Preterist perspective, the second trumpet in the Book of Revelation (8:8-9) represents God’s judgment upon the Roman Empire, particularly the destruction of its naval power. According to this interpretation, the burning mountain that is cast into the sea is seen as a reference to the eruption of Mount Vesuvius in 79 AD, which led to the destruction of the Roman fleet at Misenum. The third of the sea that became blood and the third of the creatures in the sea that died are understood as symbolic of the loss of life and destruction caused by this event.
The second trumpet is seen as a warning to the Roman Empire of its impending downfall and judgment for its sins. It is also seen as a call for people to turn away from their idolatry and corruption and to follow God’s ways.
Historicist
The second trumpet, like the first, is part of the series of judgments described in the book of Revelation. The historicist interpretation of the second trumpet sees it as a representation of the invasion of the Roman Empire by another Germanic tribe, the Vandals, who were known for their naval prowess. According to this interpretation, the trumpet blast represents the call to battle, and the great mountain burning with fire that was cast into the sea symbolizes the Vandal fleet as it sailed toward Rome. The sea turning into blood represents the naval battles that ensued between the Vandals and the Roman navy, with the blood representing the many lives lost in the conflict.
The destruction of the ships and the sea creatures that perished, as a result, represent the devastating impact of war on both human and non-human life. Historicists also see the second trumpet as a warning to the Roman Empire of the judgment that would come upon it for its sins and transgressions.
Futurist
From a Futurist perspective, the second trumpet in the Book of Revelation (8:8-9) represents a future judgment of God upon the earth. The burning mountain that is cast into the sea is understood as a reference to a future catastrophic event, possibly a volcanic eruption or a meteor strike, which will cause widespread destruction and loss of life. The third of the sea that becomes blood and the third of the creatures in the sea that die are seen as symbolic of the environmental and ecological devastation that will result from this event. The second trumpet is also understood as a warning to the world to turn away from sin and follow God’s ways, or face the consequences of their actions.
Idealist
From an Idealist perspective, the second trumpet in the Book of Revelation (8:8-9) represents a symbolic warning of God’s judgment upon the world for its sin and rebellion against him. The burning mountain that is cast into the sea is seen as a metaphor for the corruption and decay of the natural world, and the third of the sea that becomes blood and the third of the creatures in the sea that die are understood as symbols of the widespread spiritual and moral decay in the world. The second trumpet is interpreted as a warning to humanity to turn away from their sinful ways and turn towards God’s ways or face the consequences of their actions. The destruction and devastation described in the second trumpet are seen as symbolic of the spiritual and moral consequences of sin, rather than literal physical events.
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